I have yet to see this question, so i do apologize if there is a post about this.
Will there be a long quest line that you can do that will betray your race? I would love to see this in this game.
Kill your diety if that is an option in Pantheon. Alternatively, kill people in your home village. Or find mobs that reduce faction in your home town. Or try to gain faction with your race's sworn enemies. Not everything needs to be laid out for you as a "quest." You can play the role of a betrayer in a game like Pantheon however you see fit.
Vandraad said:Why would you need to betray your race? Or want to? For what purpose? What would this bring to the game that would justify the development time required?
What do you mean?! It doens't need any development. The ability to attack ANY NPC is fundemantal and I would be greatly disappointed if that wasn't the case for Pantheon. EQ gave us the freedom to attack/kill anyone, anything, anywhere. But with that kind of action comes consequences and that's where faction comes in. Kill enough of your people and your town will start attacking you on sight. I would bet VR are including this in Pantheon if not even expanding on it.
Personally I found the betrayal system in EQ2 an interesting and unique system. For EQ2. I'd hate to see it in any other game as it wouldn't be as natural to any other game in my opinion, but more of a forced add-on to appeal to players from EQ2 (which, really,each game is different, and should be, there's a reason none of the bajillion wow clones capture the audience wow did for example).
I'd hate to see Pantheon have group limited breaks, betrayal quests, equipment expertise (although I personally loved the system), a personal full voice acted storyline per PC leading you by the nose to be the super king be all end all of your class (just like every other member of your class.....), Etc just to appeal to players of older games just for the sake of appealing to players of older games.
Pantheon will be what it is. And we all expect it to kick major butt. Just remember it'll be its own thing.
Vandraad said:Why would you need to betray your race? Or want to? For what purpose? What would this bring to the game that would justify the development time required?
It's mostly for roleplaying and that is really the roots of these types of games. I realize in the modern age these games mostly revolve around endgame and best in slot item, but that was not the original plan.
The modern day ideology would likely reject this idea, but in theory an almost a whole culture could be evil based on their beliefs. Such cultural pressures could be difficult to break away from. Likewise a culture could also be entirely good based on the beliefs they hold. One example would be a society based on crime, slavery, and paganism where no one trusts each other. It is all about survival of the strongest. Another might be a culture where people support each other and put others before themselves. There might be people on each side that reject the culture's ideas and want to break away. Earning another culture's trust would be a difficult task. They will likely judge you based on what others in your race have done.
This is also fairly interesting to try and portray in a game. I haven't really seen it done in a great way before. Grinding mobs that grant faction brings about the tediousness of earning another cultures respect and shows the difficulty of doing so, but doesn't really make much sense.
I don't think a quest to change factions is much fun either. Everyone goes through the same quest and it ends up rather bland. It might be interesting if there were multiple ways to change faction and the process was long and tedious to achieve. Basically you would be earning the trust of the opposing faction by slowly proving to them you align with their ethos. The trick is how do you first meet up with them and show them you aren't of the same beliefs as the rest of your culture. Likely you would be kill on sight in many cases.
To me this is an interesting game mechanic and I would personally like to see something as long as it's not just a generic quest that changes you over.
I believe this ideal first came to the forefront with RA Salvatore and Drizzt. That is what gave me strong feelings on the topic and had me roleplaying various different ideas based on faction changing in Everquest.
From what we've seen (and Brad has said) the faction system in Pantheon right now is almost identical to EQ. Therefore, your everyday choices will affect who likes you and who doesn't like you. You have total freedom as to what path you choose and what faction you pursue. Every action has a reaction, whether you realize it or not.
In EQ, my uncle played an ogre that turned good and became friends with high elves. So in a sense, he betrayed his race. But there was no structured quest to do so. He just kept grinding faction until the high elves liked him. And as a result, the ogres no longer liked him because ogres and high elves were inherently at odds with each other.
Brad has said that questing will likely be the fastest way to gain/lose faction rather than killing the same type of mob over and over again. But I highly doubt there will be a designated "Betray your Race" quest. More likely, if you continually make choices and perform tasks that are contrary to the goals of your native city, you will naturally drift away from them. Ultimately, YOU choose how you go about doing it.
Bazgrim said:From what we've seen (and Brad has said) the faction system in Pantheon right now is almost identical to EQ. Therefore, your everyday choices will affect who likes you and who doesn't like you. You have total freedom as to what path you choose and what faction you pursue. Every action has a reaction, whether you realize it or not.
In EQ, my uncle played an ogre that turned good and became friends with high elves. So in a sense, he betrayed his race. But there was no structured quest to do so. He just kept grinding faction until the high elves liked him. And as a result, the ogres no longer liked him because ogres and high elves were inherently at odds with each other. Anyway, ultimately, YOU choose how you go about doing it.
I really thought the way they did faction in EverQuest was beautiful. The only thing missing from your uncle's ogre was a way for him to somehow become a follower of Tunare....or at least drop Rallos, or whoever he had originally. Haha.
Shucklighter said:Bazgrim said:From what we've seen (and Brad has said) the faction system in Pantheon right now is almost identical to EQ. Therefore, your everyday choices will affect who likes you and who doesn't like you. You have total freedom as to what path you choose and what faction you pursue. Every action has a reaction, whether you realize it or not.
In EQ, my uncle played an ogre that turned good and became friends with high elves. So in a sense, he betrayed his race. But there was no structured quest to do so. He just kept grinding faction until the high elves liked him. And as a result, the ogres no longer liked him because ogres and high elves were inherently at odds with each other. Anyway, ultimately, YOU choose how you go about doing it.
I really thought the way they did faction in EverQuest was beautiful. The only thing missing from your uncle's ogre was a way for him to somehow become a follower of Tunare....or at least drop Rallos, or whoever he had originally. Haha.
Haha I agree. The faction system was great. Deities on the other hand, were not so great in my opinion. As you said, you locked in that choice at creation and there was no way to change it. It seems like to compensate for this, they made it so that there weren't a whole lot of situations where your deity even made much of a difference. Or else there'd probably be a lot of people that would feel like they had to re-roll because they made an uninformed decision that took them down a path they didn't want to go. To me, it seemed like mostly a flavor choice.
Anyway, there definitely should be some way to change religions in-game. As someone that has done so irl, it only makes sense to me.
Bazgrim said:Shucklighter said:Bazgrim said:From what we've seen (and Brad has said) the faction system in Pantheon right now is almost identical to EQ. Therefore, your everyday choices will affect who likes you and who doesn't like you. You have total freedom as to what path you choose and what faction you pursue. Every action has a reaction, whether you realize it or not.
In EQ, my uncle played an ogre that turned good and became friends with high elves. So in a sense, he betrayed his race. But there was no structured quest to do so. He just kept grinding faction until the high elves liked him. And as a result, the ogres no longer liked him because ogres and high elves were inherently at odds with each other. Anyway, ultimately, YOU choose how you go about doing it.
I really thought the way they did faction in EverQuest was beautiful. The only thing missing from your uncle's ogre was a way for him to somehow become a follower of Tunare....or at least drop Rallos, or whoever he had originally. Haha.
Haha I agree. The faction system was great. Deities on the other hand, were not so great in my opinion. As you said, you locked in that choice at creation and there was no way to change it. It seems like to compensate for this, they made it so that there weren't a whole lot of situations where your deity even made much of a difference. Or else there'd probably be a lot of people that would feel like they had to re-roll because they made an uninformed decision that took them down a path they didn't want to go. To me, it seemed like mostly a flavor choice.
Anyway, there definitely should be some way to change religions in-game. As someone that has done so irl, it only makes sense to me.
I don't entirely agree with this.
Most deities that were locked are ones that made a lot of sense. They were deities that you would worship based on the class you decided to take. Many classes had the option to be agnostic or had multiple gods. If you were a Necromancer it might not be possible to worship a good or nature loving deity. If you are a Ranger it's almost impossible you would worship a satanic god. On the other hand a warrior, wizard, or rogue might (and did) have more options open to them.
In addition to this I feel races having only certain deities available might make sense. Since the cultures are segregated from one another it's unlikely the people of one culture would worship the gods of another culture.
Necro and SK being at and magic based having to choose a dirty made 0 sense. It's not knowledge imparted by the gods, if it was, by early EQ standards, you wouldn't need researched spells. Was an artificial construct to implement a non race based faction hit. As long as redundancies like that are left out I don't see a need to betray your gods.
Imo only divine based classes should have any diety choice outside of RP scenarios anyway. The average member of a faith isn't (shouldn't be) in your face enough about it for it to matter in day to day grocery shopping (merchants pricing, guards not allowing a belief into their city, etc) unless you are openly wearing a glowing badge of faith or a well known troublemaker.
I thought the Betrayal system was pretty cool in EQ2. It was betraying your alignment moreso than just betraying your race. I'm not saying that it should definitely be added to Pantheon, but based on my understanding of how Alignment and Faction is going to work, I could see some reasons why they may want to add it. I remember rolling a troll crusader, and at level 20 I had the option to become a shadowknight. Not being crazy in love with the dark side, I opted to betray Freeport and head to Qeynos so that I could become a paladin.
There was a bit of a time-sink while working on the betrayal quest and that was fine. It was basically implemented so that the system wouldn't be over-used. Every now and then you would see some weird racial/class combo and I always thought it was pretty cool. I get it ... I get it, a TROLL PALADIN? How does that make sense? Come on ... haven't you ever seen a Disney movie? The poor guy got tired of eating rats and traveling through sewer systems. He just wanted more out of life. And let's not act like ALL humans are holy. There will always be a backstabbing treacherous traitor human or 50. Adding a betrayal system does nothing more than allow a human to experience the storyline of an ogre and vice versa. Maybe there is a place for it in Pantheon, maybe not? Won't be a huge deal to me either way, but I will say that rolling a max level Troll Paladin was a ton of fun. All of the Qeynos Guards would snicker as I walked by ... animals would run away, etc. It felt pretty cool to be different.
oneADseven said:I thought the Betrayal system was pretty cool in EQ2. It was betraying your alignment moreso than just betraying your race. I'm not saying that it should definitely be added to Pantheon, but based on my understanding of how Alignment and Faction is going to work, I could see some reasons why they may want to add it. I remember rolling a troll crusader, and at level 20 I had the option to become a shadowknight. Not being crazy in love with the dark side, I opted to betray Freeport and head to Qeynos so that I could become a paladin.
There was a bit of a time-sink while working on the betrayal quest and that was fine. It was basically implemented so that the system wouldn't be over-used. Every now and then you would see some weird racial/class combo and I always thought it was pretty cool. I get it ... I get it, a TROLL PALADIN? How does that make sense? Come on ... haven't you ever seen a Disney movie? The poor guy got tired of eating rats and traveling through sewer systems. He just wanted more out of life. And let's not act like ALL humans are holy. There will always be a backstabbing treacherous traitor human or 50. Adding a betrayal system does nothing more than allow a human to experience the storyline of an ogre and vice versa. Maybe there is a place for it in Pantheon, maybe not? Won't be a huge deal to me either way, but I will say that rolling a max level Troll Paladin was a ton of fun. All of the Qeynos Guards would snicker as I walked by ... animals would run away, etc. It felt pretty cool to be different.
It's a nice idea, but there are two problems with it I think.
One is that you would have to switch classes. I believe you will start with a finite class this game. It's not something you pick at certain points as you play.
The other issue is having a spific way to change classes or sides could be a bit dull. Everyone will know what it is and complete the same thing. It is also a bit to easy to change sides if you ask me. In my opinion it should be something that is a very difficult task to accomplish.
Xilshale said:Necro and SK being at and magic based having to choose a dirty made 0 sense. It's not knowledge imparted by the gods, if it was, by early EQ standards, you wouldn't need researched spells. Was an artificial construct to implement a non race based faction hit. As long as redundancies like that are left out I don't see a need to betray your gods.
Imo only divine based classes should have any diety choice outside of RP scenarios anyway. The average member of a faith isn't (shouldn't be) in your face enough about it for it to matter in day to day grocery shopping (merchants pricing, guards not allowing a belief into their city, etc) unless you are openly wearing a glowing badge of faith or a well known troublemaker.
That is definitely something to think about. It could be hard to identify someone based on their faith. Then again it might not be so hard. A lot of these religious followers a devout and might consider it sacrilegious to hide what they are. It might insight the rather of their gods. In fact that might be a fun mechanic to portray in game. What if your god punished you in some way for doing things that the god didn't like? I also like the way the enchanters could cast illusion spells to hide their race/culture. They could also charm people to further influence them.
UnknownQuantity said:Bazgrim said:Shucklighter said:Bazgrim said:From what we've seen (and Brad has said) the faction system in Pantheon right now is almost identical to EQ. Therefore, your everyday choices will affect who likes you and who doesn't like you. You have total freedom as to what path you choose and what faction you pursue. Every action has a reaction, whether you realize it or not.
In EQ, my uncle played an ogre that turned good and became friends with high elves. So in a sense, he betrayed his race. But there was no structured quest to do so. He just kept grinding faction until the high elves liked him. And as a result, the ogres no longer liked him because ogres and high elves were inherently at odds with each other. Anyway, ultimately, YOU choose how you go about doing it.
I really thought the way they did faction in EverQuest was beautiful. The only thing missing from your uncle's ogre was a way for him to somehow become a follower of Tunare....or at least drop Rallos, or whoever he had originally. Haha.
Haha I agree. The faction system was great. Deities on the other hand, were not so great in my opinion. As you said, you locked in that choice at creation and there was no way to change it. It seems like to compensate for this, they made it so that there weren't a whole lot of situations where your deity even made much of a difference. Or else there'd probably be a lot of people that would feel like they had to re-roll because they made an uninformed decision that took them down a path they didn't want to go. To me, it seemed like mostly a flavor choice.
Anyway, there definitely should be some way to change religions in-game. As someone that has done so irl, it only makes sense to me.
I don't entirely agree with this.
Most deities that were locked are ones that made a lot of sense. They were deities that you would worship based on the class you decided to take. Many classes had the option to be agnostic or had multiple gods. If you were a Necromancer it might not be possible to worship a good or nature loving deity. If you are a Ranger it's almost impossible you would worship a satanic god. On the other hand a warrior, wizard, or rogue might (and did) have more options open to them.In addition to this I feel races having only certain deities available might make sense. Since the cultures are segregated from one another it's unlikely the people of one culture would worship the gods of another culture.
Yes, but that's not really what I'm saying. I agree with the race-class-deity restrictions, as far as lore is concerned. My point is that, once you pick a deity, you're stuck with it. But that's not really a big deal, because unless I'm just not remembering correctly, your choice of deity did not have that much effect on your gameplay experience. Not nearly as much as your race or class choice, anyway. Even in the way that NPCs interacted with you. For example, obviously, only certain races could be necros. And there are only 3 gods that necros can worship. And if you were a Necromancer there'd probably be people even in your own town that didn't like you just because necros are inherently evil. But was there really any difference between a necro that worshipped Bertoxxulous and a Necro that worshipped Innoruuk? Not that I can think of. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So all I'm saying is: Deity should make more of a difference than that. Your choice should matter. It makes sense that each god would treat their followers differently and also the followers would have different preconceived notions about followers of other gods. And if you don't like your initial choice, there should be some way to change it. Of course, there should be limitations. It shouldn't be possible, for example, for a Necro to be converted to Erollosi Marr without them also changing class (and I'm not a huge fan of changing classes so that's kinda out of the question.) But I don't see a reason why you shouldn't be able to somehow change to another religion within your class. (Like from Bertox to Inno or Cazic.. and vice versa) And it shouldn't be as simple as clicking a button to change. I think it would be cool to have some sort of quest where you have to pledge your allegiance to your new god and show your loyalty and devotion.
Anyway, I have a feeling that deities are going to be a huge part of Pantheon. I mean, the game is freaking named Pantheon, after all.
Bazgrim said:UnknownQuantity said:Bazgrim said:Shucklighter said:Bazgrim said:From what we've seen (and Brad has said) the faction system in Pantheon right now is almost identical to EQ. Therefore, your everyday choices will affect who likes you and who doesn't like you. You have total freedom as to what path you choose and what faction you pursue. Every action has a reaction, whether you realize it or not.
In EQ, my uncle played an ogre that turned good and became friends with high elves. So in a sense, he betrayed his race. But there was no structured quest to do so. He just kept grinding faction until the high elves liked him. And as a result, the ogres no longer liked him because ogres and high elves were inherently at odds with each other. Anyway, ultimately, YOU choose how you go about doing it.
I really thought the way they did faction in EverQuest was beautiful. The only thing missing from your uncle's ogre was a way for him to somehow become a follower of Tunare....or at least drop Rallos, or whoever he had originally. Haha.
Haha I agree. The faction system was great. Deities on the other hand, were not so great in my opinion. As you said, you locked in that choice at creation and there was no way to change it. It seems like to compensate for this, they made it so that there weren't a whole lot of situations where your deity even made much of a difference. Or else there'd probably be a lot of people that would feel like they had to re-roll because they made an uninformed decision that took them down a path they didn't want to go. To me, it seemed like mostly a flavor choice.
Anyway, there definitely should be some way to change religions in-game. As someone that has done so irl, it only makes sense to me.
I don't entirely agree with this.
Most deities that were locked are ones that made a lot of sense. They were deities that you would worship based on the class you decided to take. Many classes had the option to be agnostic or had multiple gods. If you were a Necromancer it might not be possible to worship a good or nature loving deity. If you are a Ranger it's almost impossible you would worship a satanic god. On the other hand a warrior, wizard, or rogue might (and did) have more options open to them.In addition to this I feel races having only certain deities available might make sense. Since the cultures are segregated from one another it's unlikely the people of one culture would worship the gods of another culture.
Yes, but that's not really what I'm saying. I agree with the race-class-deity restrictions, as far as lore is concerned. My point is that, once you pick a deity, you're stuck with it. But that's not really a big deal, because unless I'm just not remembering correctly, your choice of deity did not have that much effect on your gameplay experience. Not nearly as much as your race or class choice, anyway. Even in the way that NPCs interacted with you. For example, obviously, only certain races could be necros. And there are only 3 gods that necros can worship. And if you were a Necromancer there'd probably be people even in your own town that didn't like you just because necros are inherently evil. But was there really any difference between a necro that worshipped Bertoxxulous and a Necro that worshipped Innoruuk? Not that I can think of. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So all I'm saying is: Deity should make more of a difference than that. Your choice should matter. It makes sense that each god would treat their followers differently and also the followers would have different preconceived notions about followers of other gods. And if you don't like your initial choice, there should be some way to change it. Of course, there should be limitations. It shouldn't be possible, for example, for a Necro to be converted to Erollosi Marr without them also changing class (and I'm not a huge fan of changing classes so that's kinda out of the question.) But I don't see a reason why you shouldn't be able to somehow change to another religion within your class. (Like from Bertox to Inno or Cazic.. and vice versa) And it shouldn't be as simple as clicking a button to change. I think it would be cool to have some sort of quest where you have to pledge your allegiance to your new god and show your loyalty and devotion.
Anyway, I have a feeling that deities are going to be a huge part of Pantheon. I mean, the game is freaking named Pantheon, after all.
Those are good points.
The question is weather or not you should be able to change class as well. That would open things up a lot more and how would you keep it from being something that is commonplace.
I agree that it makes sense for you to be able to change gods if the god is something that goes along with your class.
I also agree that worshipping different gods should be something more distinct.
Xilshale said:Necro and SK being at and magic based having to choose a dirty made 0 sense. It's not knowledge imparted by the gods, if it was, by early EQ standards, you wouldn't need researched spells. Was an artificial construct to implement a non race based faction hit. As long as redundancies like that are left out I don't see a need to betray your gods.
Imo only divine based classes should have any diety choice outside of RP scenarios anyway. The average member of a faith isn't (shouldn't be) in your face enough about it for it to matter in day to day grocery shopping (merchants pricing, guards not allowing a belief into their city, etc) unless you are openly wearing a glowing badge of faith or a well known troublemaker.
Throughout the history of fantasy fiction magic is very often portrayed as being a gift provided by gods. By worshipping the god (s)he favors his devout with power to further His cause. This is as common in novels as it is in games. Hell, it's a foundational truth in religions worldwide and has been for thousands of year, passed down thru lore and mythology.
And if you take your position that the fact that something is researched proves that it doesnt require a god, then how do you explain the different types of magic, with the magic of necromancer's being the antithesis of that of a cleric. Or do you mean to suggest that thru sufficient study alone a cleric, a mage, a druid and a necromancer can all weild the same magics, without any fundimental change to the essence of one compared to another?
On to the second point, if I know that a person is a satanist that believes in sacraficing humans to his god to attain favor, as a budhist (if I were) I would be fundimentally at odds with that individual and would choose not to service them in my business. It's entirely rational and predictable.
UnknownQuantity said:Bazgrim said:UnknownQuantity said:Bazgrim said:Shucklighter said:Bazgrim said:From what we've seen (and Brad has said) the faction system in Pantheon right now is almost identical to EQ. Therefore, your everyday choices will affect who likes you and who doesn't like you. You have total freedom as to what path you choose and what faction you pursue. Every action has a reaction, whether you realize it or not.
In EQ, my uncle played an ogre that turned good and became friends with high elves. So in a sense, he betrayed his race. But there was no structured quest to do so. He just kept grinding faction until the high elves liked him. And as a result, the ogres no longer liked him because ogres and high elves were inherently at odds with each other. Anyway, ultimately, YOU choose how you go about doing it.
I really thought the way they did faction in EverQuest was beautiful. The only thing missing from your uncle's ogre was a way for him to somehow become a follower of Tunare....or at least drop Rallos, or whoever he had originally. Haha.
Haha I agree. The faction system was great. Deities on the other hand, were not so great in my opinion. As you said, you locked in that choice at creation and there was no way to change it. It seems like to compensate for this, they made it so that there weren't a whole lot of situations where your deity even made much of a difference. Or else there'd probably be a lot of people that would feel like they had to re-roll because they made an uninformed decision that took them down a path they didn't want to go. To me, it seemed like mostly a flavor choice.
Anyway, there definitely should be some way to change religions in-game. As someone that has done so irl, it only makes sense to me.
I don't entirely agree with this.
Most deities that were locked are ones that made a lot of sense. They were deities that you would worship based on the class you decided to take. Many classes had the option to be agnostic or had multiple gods. If you were a Necromancer it might not be possible to worship a good or nature loving deity. If you are a Ranger it's almost impossible you would worship a satanic god. On the other hand a warrior, wizard, or rogue might (and did) have more options open to them.In addition to this I feel races having only certain deities available might make sense. Since the cultures are segregated from one another it's unlikely the people of one culture would worship the gods of another culture.
Yes, but that's not really what I'm saying. I agree with the race-class-deity restrictions, as far as lore is concerned. My point is that, once you pick a deity, you're stuck with it. But that's not really a big deal, because unless I'm just not remembering correctly, your choice of deity did not have that much effect on your gameplay experience. Not nearly as much as your race or class choice, anyway. Even in the way that NPCs interacted with you. For example, obviously, only certain races could be necros. And there are only 3 gods that necros can worship. And if you were a Necromancer there'd probably be people even in your own town that didn't like you just because necros are inherently evil. But was there really any difference between a necro that worshipped Bertoxxulous and a Necro that worshipped Innoruuk? Not that I can think of. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So all I'm saying is: Deity should make more of a difference than that. Your choice should matter. It makes sense that each god would treat their followers differently and also the followers would have different preconceived notions about followers of other gods. And if you don't like your initial choice, there should be some way to change it. Of course, there should be limitations. It shouldn't be possible, for example, for a Necro to be converted to Erollosi Marr without them also changing class (and I'm not a huge fan of changing classes so that's kinda out of the question.) But I don't see a reason why you shouldn't be able to somehow change to another religion within your class. (Like from Bertox to Inno or Cazic.. and vice versa) And it shouldn't be as simple as clicking a button to change. I think it would be cool to have some sort of quest where you have to pledge your allegiance to your new god and show your loyalty and devotion.
Anyway, I have a feeling that deities are going to be a huge part of Pantheon. I mean, the game is freaking named Pantheon, after all.
Those are good points.
The question is weather or not you should be able to change class as well. That would open things up a lot more and how would you keep it from being something that is commonplace.
I agree that it makes sense for you to be able to change gods if the god is something that goes along with your class.
I also agree that worshipping different gods should be something more distinct.
Like I said earlier, I think changing classes is actually completely out of the question. Pretty sure Kilsin said that's just not going to be possible. The closest thing to that would be Progeny and at point, you're probably kinda creating a whole new character. Although we don't know the specifics. I would just like to see some variety within your chosen class.
Regarding necro and SK, no I mean by the use of researched spells (crafted) in early EQ and the int based useage for mana defining them being arcane casters thereby not tied to the gods . Plain and simple
Regarding knowing someone's faith and hilarious examples of wrong information with a heavy media slant:. Lol ok, believe what you will and we all wear signs showing our faith loud and clear for everyone to see. Gotcha. Bowing out of this conversation because this will not end with any shred of civility with the way it's going. Lol